Hot Right Now

Ideas Brainstormers Advice

Views: 355
Suggestions: 8

Child Labor or Parental Restitution?
Posted 01/06/2010 by sarossell in Issues needing resolution | Submit idea in this category

Consider the possibility that a child under the age of consent (17 or younger) commits a felony. Do you convict the child as an adult, convict the parents, or both? I would like to see the person who committed the crime have to pay restitution to the victim through paid labor at market value until the debt is paid. And if it's murder, then the penalty to life long restitution to the family of the victim. What do you think?

Replies to this comment

sarossell (01/17/2010): I greatly value your experience and education so I hope we can continue to debate this issue further.

I was not a troubled youth, but I had little parental guidance. My "blank slate" was quickly filled in with concepts of what is right and wrong by trial and error quite effectively. The American attitude of "rehabilitation" is actually one of Victorian revenge. There is no actual concern for the offender; just anger, a convenient self-righteous solution to cast blame, and an all to willing choice to lock people away for long periods of time with no purpose of rehabilitation or corrective educational measures during or after they have "paid" for their crime.

In light of that neanderthal attitude and the fact that most American families are actually too busy away from their kids trying to make two incomes to make ends meet, there is very little time spent "raising" their kids. America's children have been raised by television, school teachers and video games since the early 1970's.

Seriously, we leave them to their own vices with constant lies from television advertisements telling them how they should look and eat and play and think, playing violent video games that teach them how to kill and steal (and yes they play them weather you know it or not) while we toll away at our jobs all day and we wonder why they misbehave.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that little Johnny should get away with anything just because his parents are absent or worse, even more clueless than he is. I'm saying hold the child accountable for his crimes and the parents for theirs and one is not both. That child's slate will fill up quite nicely when he's clearing freeway litter for trying out the latest "crime" he learned while playing Grad Theft Auto IV.

The insistence that the teen years somehow define a demarcation between guilt of the child and negligence of the parents is based on outdated concepts. A twelve year old just robbed a bank last month! How do you raise your children against that? "Look both ways when crossing the street Mary. Don't be mean to the other kids at school Lisa. And don't rob any banks!" You let them see that twelve year old bank robber earn hard labor and that will put a big red mark on their slates that says "Dude! Don't try this at home!"

How helpful was this?

Posted by IdeaSponge
01/17/2010

I agree with you for the most part. Punishment is not enough however and seeing punishment won't do it either. The biggest problem is that most kids think they are smarter than subjectA. Whether subjectA is a parent or another kid, it doesn't matter. This attitude comes from a lack of real guidance and instruction. Especially if you have divorced parents then the kids grows up not knowing who to believe since often times you have parents using the kid as a rock they throw back and forth after the divorce. This is very damaging on a kid and the only place they have to turn is their peers.

I grew up playing video games, and still play them, but they were of little influence on me. What I have noticed is that kids do things to get noticed. It almost always boils down to seeking attention. Good or bad, attention is still attention. If they don't get it from the parents they get it from their peers and "street-cred" is a powerfully alluring form of attention.

Recent studies have show that a dramatic change happens to a child's brain on a physical, and emotional, level during adolescence. It is almost akin to the kind of change that takes place during the first 2 years of development when we form our core being. Simply seeing a child picking up trash along the highway is not going to rewrite that programming. It is not enough to "know" the consequences, they have to understand them as well, and that is something that is not easily taught.

This is why I put more emphasis on the parents than the child. If parents know the consequences of not raising a child to understand these things, then they will put more effort into making sure they do. Unfortunately you see parents yelling at kids for making a mistake instead of just instructing them.

In my experience the kids I have known that faired better come from parents that let a kid make their own mistakes instead of scolding them or trying to force them into whatever image they think is best. Simply telling a kid not do this or not to do that is pointless. All it takes is 1 time that the kid makes the attempt, or sees a friend make the attempt, and get away with it, that all that instruction is completely undone.

Teaching a kid "this is what happens if you do this" will have an effect on some kids, but it does not address the real problem. Parents need to instill in kids a strong sense of morality so that they understand why it is important NOT to do those things on a fundamental level. Unfortunately you see grown ups as well as children bending, or even breaking these moral boundaries. Even a simple act of speeding teaching a kid, "hey, I can break the law and get away with since my mommy does it all the time".

Here is a America I think the heart of the problem comes down to this. Our privatized free commerce way of life as created a shark tank. People don't see other people as equals, they see them as potential exploits or barriers. This causes people to not give a damn about their fellow citizen, or worse, the world at large. That is one of the things that sickness me the most is how ignorant people over here are to the real problems of this world. They think that unless it effects them directly, it is of no concern. The ripple effect of that mindset is destroying our country starting with our children.

Children are the foundations of our future and should be treated as such.

Replies to this comment

sarossell (01/18/2010): Ideasponge, I'm not ignoring you. Your response is extensive and deserves close scrutiny before I formulate my reply. Stay tuned. And thanks for continuing our debate! :o)

sarossell (01/19/2010): Hello again IdeaSponge!

I can certainly agree that children of divorced families are often used as bargaining assets for indirect grief that hurts all involved. This is a completely different issue. Nonetheless real and painfully immature but not the discussion at hand.
You mentioned that simply seeing a child picking up trash along the highway does not work because it is not enough to "know" the consequences, they have to understand them as well, and that is something that is not easily taught. I agree of course because that statement actually makes my point; consequences can only truly be understood by paying them, not knowing them.
By saying that you "put more emphasis on the parents than the child", I assume you mean more responsibility for criminal behavior of the parents for the acts of the children. While I agree that parents who are negligent in maintaining the safety and health of their children is a punishable offense, I dare anyone to define the best way to raise a child to know the difference between right and wrong without having them face the consequences of their own actions directly.
Let's face it, most people are not competent enough to be parents. It's all trial and error, and mostly knowing how NOT to do it from the equally poor examples they got as children from their own parents.
You say that punishment is not enough and seeing punishment won't do it either pointing out that a lack of real guidance and instruction is the culprit for poor child rearing. I ask from where would this real guidance and instruction come from? How would quality be ascertained and who would administer it? The schools do the best they can in this ridiculous litigious age we live in. Parents as I said earlier are too busy working two jobs to make ends meet in the best of circumstances (the worst being one of divorce).
You say that in your experience the kids you have known fared better with parents that let a kid make their own mistakes but, if I understand you correctly, without the consequences that go along with those mistakes (since the parents in your view should take the brunt of the punishment for the acts of the child).
Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating public caning like the case of Michael Fay back in 1994 for vandalism in Singapore. But real consequences for real criminal behavior by the person that committed the crime (no matter the age) puts the solution directly onto the problem. Besides, if the parents are punished in lieu of the child, that can only foment anger toward the child and with enough added stress on the parent could even lead to abuse. And how “cool” would the “street cred” be if a teenager got their parents “busted” for something they did? And what if they parents are incarcerated? That would place the children in an even worse situation. But if child is forced to face the consequences of their own actions, resources and solutions are properly in line.
As a side note, the video games you and I grew up with were nothing compared to the high definition, reality-based gore and violence today's children have access to. I was appalled to hear that there are games where you can "beat a hooker to death" or "play" sniper in a neighborhood of children. That's a far cry from Pac-Man and Space Invaders!
And while I agree that children are the foundation of our future, that's somewhat axiomatic and will take care of itself in time as they grow to adulthood. I hear similar comments only to find that a form of child worship is at work. And that I cannot abide.

IdeaSponge (01/19/2010): I think you may have misinterpreted what I meant. You seem to be stuck on the "crime and restitution" issue and while that is the main point of your post, it is not the real problem. Kids don't commit crime for no reason at all. They do it out of necessity or for attention. Either way that means that there is another underlying problem and that is what needs to be addressed. By putting more emphasis of punishment on the parent, then chances are they will not allow it to even go that far. What the penalties of that should be I think would be best to hit them where it hurts most, the wallet. Incarceration is a joke and fixes nothing. All it does is waste tax payers dollars and breeds more animosity against society and it's laws.

As far as your statement of it all being trial and error, that is wholly incorrect. It only seems that way because most parents adopt the attitude of "you can't tell me how to raise my kid", and that is totally hogwash. Granted it is not completely cut and dry, but there are simple guidelines that if followed, promote a healthy attitude in parent and child.

It is time to stop treating the symptoms and to start treating the problem. A child breaking the law is a symptom of a much bigger problem(s). Most of which is in how they are raised and part of that may even be in the rules that are established in the first place.

Video games do have effect but so far the amount of that effect has not been able to be determined. Proper education about morals and what is right and wrong before a child even plays a game is what determines what a child gets out of that game. I know several parents who allow their kids, (ages 8-14) to play Ghost Recon or Gears of War and those kids are some of the most well behaved kids I know. Not only that but they also know that what is on the screen is pure fiction and they understand that. Not because they are some wonder kid, but because the parents took the time to educate them on that subject.

Childhood crime has existed well before games or TV where even around and to blame that is just passing the buck.

The more people keep looking to outside influences as the source of the problem instead of looking internally at the family relationships, then the problem with kids and crime will persist. Parents need to stop looking for excuses and need to start taking responsibility for who their child is becoming.

How helpful was this?

Posted by Millenial
07/27/2010

I agree that consequences must be enforced in order for some people to learn. The difficult thing about this problem is that not everyone learns the same way. Some have to learn by experience, because they lack the empathy to learn by others. I definitely agree with IdeaSponge that empathy is the problem. Children are born with some empathy, but also a great deal of selfishness and self-centeredness. Parents need to take an active role in teaching empathy to their kids, and should be held accountable for their children's actions till the age of 8. I think by 8 a child has had enough experience to know right from wrong, and if they're willfully choosing wrong it's an act of evil, not ignorance.

Replies to this comment

sarossell (08/19/2010): You make a valid point regarding empathy and education. Our current media saturation with it's constant desynthesizing violence in movies, television and games makes that task even more difficult. Not impossible mind you. And don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way saying that we should ban such material. In fact, it gives the discerning parent a perfect excuse to get involved when they see (and hopefully screen) what their children are exposed to.

That being said, I'm curious about your arbitrary age of 8. I know some thirty year old men who still don't know the difference between right and wrong. Just go to any corporate environment and you can find evil. Wall Street is full of evil, dispassionate sociopaths who never learned that the word "business" is not a catch-all excuse for ruthless, psychotic behavior with the nation's financial infrastructure (particularly the lending industry - home mortgage industry being the worst.)

How helpful was this?